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	<title>Comments on: subjectdiscipline2.0 &#8211; join the debate!</title>
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	<description>The point is not to interpret the world but to change it.</description>
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		<title>By: John Connell: the blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; subjectdiscipline2.0 - my contribution</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-343</link>
		<dc:creator>John Connell: the blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; subjectdiscipline2.0 - my contribution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] subjectdiscipline2.0 - join the debate!12/17/2006 11:17 am9 Comments [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] subjectdiscipline2.0 &#8211; join the debate!12/17/2006 11:17 am9 Comments [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Truss</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-342</link>
		<dc:creator>David Truss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-342</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion, (and another late night post here).
It is weird to wander over here and read your quote above: &quot;He fears that, for too many too often, &quot; the talk is of new ways of learning but all that happens is the old framework is polished and added to.&quot;
After posting this today:
http://elgg.net/dtruss/weblog/144035.html
I think that if we want students to be lifelong learners, and we want them to take ownership of their own learning to any extent, then subject discipline must be, at the very least, &#039;loosened&#039; up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion, (and another late night post here).<br />
It is weird to wander over here and read your quote above: &#8220;He fears that, for too many too often, &#8221; the talk is of new ways of learning but all that happens is the old framework is polished and added to.&#8221;<br />
After posting this today:<br />
<a href="http://elgg.net/dtruss/weblog/144035.html" rel="nofollow">http://elgg.net/dtruss/weblog/144035.html</a><br />
I think that if we want students to be lifelong learners, and we want them to take ownership of their own learning to any extent, then subject discipline must be, at the very least, &#8216;loosened&#8217; up.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Hill</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-341</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-341</guid>
		<description>Mine was also a late at night comment.  I do agree that we now have a great opportunity to change direction.  I just don&#039;t want us to concentrate on current technologies when what is really at issue is pedagogy.

For instance, a Glow Group could be used for real collaborative learning giving all pupils concerned a sense of ownership and self-worth.  The same is true of a blog or podcast, but it could also be achieved with paper and pencil in a classroom.  The newer tools are just motivators, however powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mine was also a late at night comment.  I do agree that we now have a great opportunity to change direction.  I just don&#8217;t want us to concentrate on current technologies when what is really at issue is pedagogy.</p>
<p>For instance, a Glow Group could be used for real collaborative learning giving all pupils concerned a sense of ownership and self-worth.  The same is true of a blog or podcast, but it could also be achieved with paper and pencil in a classroom.  The newer tools are just motivators, however powerful.</p>
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		<title>By: John Connell</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-338</link>
		<dc:creator>John Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-338</guid>
		<description>Chris - this is one of those &#039;it&#039;s late at night and I have to get up at 6 in the morning&#039; responses :-)  So I&#039;ll give a fuller response later.

Your own thinking has led me to another connection in all of this - and it&#039;s a connection with one of Ivan Illich&#039;s statements. Thanks for reminding me of it, and I&#039;ll explain when I have time tomorrow (possibly).

Bob - I think we just have to be realistic about the little that has been achieved to date, but we also have to &#039;keep the faith&#039; and struggle on until it really does start to make a difference. I know it&#039;s been said a million times before, but I think we&#039;re reaching a genuine turning point in the use of technology in education. It just feels different from anything that has come before. Again, I&#039;ll expand when I have a little more time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8211; this is one of those &#8216;it&#8217;s late at night and I have to get up at 6 in the morning&#8217; responses <img src='http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   So I&#8217;ll give a fuller response later.</p>
<p>Your own thinking has led me to another connection in all of this &#8211; and it&#8217;s a connection with one of Ivan Illich&#8217;s statements. Thanks for reminding me of it, and I&#8217;ll explain when I have time tomorrow (possibly).</p>
<p>Bob &#8211; I think we just have to be realistic about the little that has been achieved to date, but we also have to &#8216;keep the faith&#8217; and struggle on until it really does start to make a difference. I know it&#8217;s been said a million times before, but I think we&#8217;re reaching a genuine turning point in the use of technology in education. It just feels different from anything that has come before. Again, I&#8217;ll expand when I have a little more time.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-340</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-340</guid>
		<description>Knowledge is not a limited or finite amount of information.  Subject knowledge within even the EU will be different across countries.  But people can still be &quot;educated&quot; having aquired different bodies of knowledge at school.  Perhaps what makes a person &quot;educated&quot; is the ability to acquire knowledge.  Does that not then imply that subject teaching is about the specialised tools which that subject uses and can offer, not about teaching facts or information for later regurgitation.

I too am depressed at how little ICT and all the exciting new tools have actually changed the classroom methodology.  The Blackboard is still the centre piece however high tech it might appear to be.

I look forward to reading what Greg Whitby has to say.

I have made some earlier posts to my own blog about this subject, so if it&#039;s Ok with you, I will add the new tag to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowledge is not a limited or finite amount of information.  Subject knowledge within even the EU will be different across countries.  But people can still be &#8220;educated&#8221; having aquired different bodies of knowledge at school.  Perhaps what makes a person &#8220;educated&#8221; is the ability to acquire knowledge.  Does that not then imply that subject teaching is about the specialised tools which that subject uses and can offer, not about teaching facts or information for later regurgitation.</p>
<p>I too am depressed at how little ICT and all the exciting new tools have actually changed the classroom methodology.  The Blackboard is still the centre piece however high tech it might appear to be.</p>
<p>I look forward to reading what Greg Whitby has to say.</p>
<p>I have made some earlier posts to my own blog about this subject, so if it&#8217;s Ok with you, I will add the new tag to them.</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-339</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-339</guid>
		<description>John, for what it&#039;s worth: I was told this evening by a (much younger) quondam English teacher that she had never seen anyone convey as clearly as I do how to write effectively. She thought I should be disseminating this more widely. She may be right, but what I&#039;m giving this example for is as an example of an area in which I have expertise which I can use one-to-one in meatspace, in the classroom (tho&#039; I&#039;m no longer doing that), online interactively, or online as a &quot;how-to&quot; - though I don&#039;t think that&#039;d be particularly effective. I agree that delivery systems are vital - and I&#039;m now into exploring this in another context - but you have to have something worth delivering as well.
I guess I&#039;m clarifying things for myself here as much as anything ....thanks for the space!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, for what it&#8217;s worth: I was told this evening by a (much younger) quondam English teacher that she had never seen anyone convey as clearly as I do how to write effectively. She thought I should be disseminating this more widely. She may be right, but what I&#8217;m giving this example for is as an example of an area in which I have expertise which I can use one-to-one in meatspace, in the classroom (tho&#8217; I&#8217;m no longer doing that), online interactively, or online as a &#8220;how-to&#8221; &#8211; though I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;d be particularly effective. I agree that delivery systems are vital &#8211; and I&#8217;m now into exploring this in another context &#8211; but you have to have something worth delivering as well.<br />
I guess I&#8217;m clarifying things for myself here as much as anything &#8230;.thanks for the space!</p>
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		<title>By: Wax on, wax off at whereisab</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-337</link>
		<dc:creator>Wax on, wax off at whereisab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-337</guid>
		<description>[...] Courtesy of John Connell from an ongoing discussion with Greg Whitby, comes the concept of &#8217;subject discipline 2.0&#8242;. So I thought I&#8217;d add in my thoughts, for what it&#8217;s worth. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Courtesy of John Connell from an ongoing discussion with Greg Whitby, comes the concept of &#8217;subject discipline 2.0&#8242;. So I thought I&#8217;d add in my thoughts, for what it&#8217;s worth. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Connell</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-336</link>
		<dc:creator>John Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-336</guid>
		<description>Dinosaurs welcome - aggressive or otherwise :-)

I guess I would be equally surprised, Chris, should there &quot;... come a time when expert knowledge is deemed unnecessary.&quot;  The heart of the question for me, though, is in the nature of knowledge itself and the extent to which that is changing, if at all.

I&#039;ve been trying to work up my own thoughts on Greg&#039;s question, and I think my focus might be on the extent to which the very concept of the subject discipline as we have known it for so long is still useful as a means of organising the curriculum, or of organising our perspective on knowledge. Is the ambiguity you identify to be found in the question itself, or is it somehow in our changing understanding of the nature of knowledge (or our understanding of the changing nature of knowledge, a quite different thing altogether)?

As a primary teacher, I was always relatively comfortable with some vagueness around how I might have tried to define a &#039;subject&#039;, and I think I&#039;ve always accepted that, in any case, the notion of the subject that we have lived with for so long has always been, to an extent, an artificial construct - but also one that has developed and shifted continuously over time. &#039;English&#039; as a subject discipline, for instance, has certainly never stood still.

I appreciate too that we run the risk of obfuscation through the use of jargon - but jargon can have its uses too. While we are in this period of change, the language we use is necessarily vague because we simply have not yet come to a position of general agreement on definitions. Maybe we never will.

I&#039;ll post some more extensive thoughts on this soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dinosaurs welcome &#8211; aggressive or otherwise <img src='http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I guess I would be equally surprised, Chris, should there &#8220;&#8230; come a time when expert knowledge is deemed unnecessary.&#8221;  The heart of the question for me, though, is in the nature of knowledge itself and the extent to which that is changing, if at all.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been trying to work up my own thoughts on Greg&#8217;s question, and I think my focus might be on the extent to which the very concept of the subject discipline as we have known it for so long is still useful as a means of organising the curriculum, or of organising our perspective on knowledge. Is the ambiguity you identify to be found in the question itself, or is it somehow in our changing understanding of the nature of knowledge (or our understanding of the changing nature of knowledge, a quite different thing altogether)?</p>
<p>As a primary teacher, I was always relatively comfortable with some vagueness around how I might have tried to define a &#8217;subject&#8217;, and I think I&#8217;ve always accepted that, in any case, the notion of the subject that we have lived with for so long has always been, to an extent, an artificial construct &#8211; but also one that has developed and shifted continuously over time. &#8216;English&#8217; as a subject discipline, for instance, has certainly never stood still.</p>
<p>I appreciate too that we run the risk of obfuscation through the use of jargon &#8211; but jargon can have its uses too. While we are in this period of change, the language we use is necessarily vague because we simply have not yet come to a position of general agreement on definitions. Maybe we never will.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll post some more extensive thoughts on this soon.</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-335</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-335</guid>
		<description>What does that quote actually mean, though? As an English specialist, I find it meaningless - and I&#039;m not trying to be an aggressive dinosaur here ;-) For me, the heart of what I teach is what I have to share, and I&#039;m willing to use any means I find effective in sharing it. But it&#039;s nevertheless a specialised area, and I&#039;d be surprised if there were to come a time when expert knowledge is deemed unnecessary.
Maybe I&#039;m getting the wrong end of the stick here - but that&#039;s a possible result of ambiguity and jargon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does that quote actually mean, though? As an English specialist, I find it meaningless &#8211; and I&#8217;m not trying to be an aggressive dinosaur here <img src='http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  For me, the heart of what I teach is what I have to share, and I&#8217;m willing to use any means I find effective in sharing it. But it&#8217;s nevertheless a specialised area, and I&#8217;d be surprised if there were to come a time when expert knowledge is deemed unnecessary.<br />
Maybe I&#8217;m getting the wrong end of the stick here &#8211; but that&#8217;s a possible result of ambiguity and jargon.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy O'Connell</title>
		<link>http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-334</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy O'Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/?p=235#comment-334</guid>
		<description>John, I too very much look forward to engaging in this dialogue. &#039;subjectdiscipline2.0&#039; - cool!  More on this later...in the meantime, the hyperlink to Greg is not working.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I too very much look forward to engaging in this dialogue. &#8217;subjectdiscipline2.0&#8242; &#8211; cool!  More on this later&#8230;in the meantime, the hyperlink to Greg is not working.</p>
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